The
following transcript is
from SOCDAISY, a Yahoogroup dedicated to a
fictionalSociety
promoting humor in
gaming. See how the whole concept of a
"first contact game"(my
original idea) gets spun
out of control to the point
where I'm being compared to
the EinsatzKommando in Eastern
Europe, and I haven't
run the game yet!
I
refrain from using last
names, as the language grows colorful in places.
First post
Folks:
I'm looking
for alot of roughly 25mm to 28mm rabbits, preferably engaged in
vaguely peaceful anthropomorphic activities (e.g., engaging in
human like pursuits).
It's that
Easter time of year, so if you spot something at a dollar store, five
and dime, etc. I would appreciate the tip. I need about 40-50 of
them, so affordability is a must.
Walt
==================
Would it be
odd to ask,what you plan to do with 40-50 bunnies? And instead of 40
25mm bunnies, couldnt you just have a single 7 foot one that is
invisible? Would be cheaper, well except for the drinks.
Doug
================
Giant
invisible rabbits.. that's so last year.
I've had
"Harvey" show up in several of my past games, including Le Grand Cirque.
The 40-50
bunnies are for a game I've run before on a smaller scale, SERGEANT
SLAUGHTER IN BUN-BUN LAND.
Since I'm
giving Slaughter's team a little more fire power this time, I'm 'upping'
the victim... er... cute little bunnies this time.
Walt
================
To the
gentleman looking for rabbits at the Dollar Tree:
Target,
various gumball machines at local movie theaters, and maybe the
local CD store all
carry small Looney Toon figures, including a Bugs Bunny. Unless you
think an army of Bugs Bunny's isn't Daisyish?
Carl
=================
I now have a
small army of the buggers... ten dollars gets an amazing quanity of
dollar store rabbits.
They will
stack up like cordwood....
Walt
================
Okay, I've
had some inspiration lately. I was in a dollar tree and found a
lovely little Easter bunny village, all ceramic buildings with resin
cutesie accessories. I've found the bunnies that go with the set--
about 30mm+ tall, but exactly the sort of thing I wanted to pick up for a
game I've run on a smaller scale called "Sergeant Slaughter in
Bun-Bun Land" The premise is that a squad of not-very- elite
bumbling Space Marines led by the cooly professional Murray Slaughter
have stepped through one of those convenient space-time warps in
pursuit of some despicable alien Vilsssh (a creature that looks like a
"Harvey" style rabbit in power armor). Where they end up, instead,
is a green and pleasant land, where the sun is always shining, the
grass never needs mowing, and it never rains. Oh, and by the way,
there's a horde of giant, vaguely Vilsssh-looking creatures
heading your way.
The idea of
the game, as I originally conceived it, was not *just* an activity
where cute, iconic and helpless cartoony critters are relentlessly
slaughtered and stacked up like cordwood-- although the idea has a
certain meanspirited appeal for the cynical. No, I wanted each player
(playing a single not-so-elite but tough-as-nails Galactic
Patrol figure) to have his rendevous with destiny, and to gradually
start asking himself some ethical questions. You know, about why
they are piling up rabbit bodies like cordwood when they are here to
"keep the peace".. making the winner (if that's important)
the first guy to figure out that a giant mistake has been made, and
maybe we ought to negotiate, FIRST. Sort of RPG style.
I like the
idea, but it might be too 'heavy' for some folks and lack the kind of
blood and guts angst so many people expect. So I was on the hunt for
a slightly more clever mechanic that non-Daisy types might
understand. Enter "Killer Bunnies: the Quest for the Magic Carrot", a
new game by Playtime. It's a humorous (or what passes for humor)
non-collectible, expandle card game about, you guessed it, Killer
Rabbits.
My wife
Audrey picked it up for me on a hunch I might like it, plus a few expansion
modules. She's right; I do like it, but not as published.
The game rules are very finicky indeed; they will not translate
very well to a miniatures medium, in my estimation. However, it
seems such a shame to waste that card art and theme, so close to the
Slaughter game, that I'm thinking of converting the mechanics to
match the cards (or at least some of them). Any ideas?
Walt
======================
>No, I
wanted each player (playing a single not-so-elite
but tough-as- >nails
Galactic Patrol figure) to have his rendevous with destiny, >and to
gradually start asking himself some ethical questions. You >know,
about why they are piling up rabbit bodies like cordwood when >they are
here to "keep the peace".. making the winner (if that's >
important) the first guy to figure out that a giant mistake has been made,
and maybe we ought to negotiate, FIRST. Sort of RPG style.
Sounds like
something "Bill the Galactic Hero" would stumble into. Of course Bills
answer would be, for every 100 killer bunnies I kill, I get a year
off my enlistment.
> > I like
the idea, but it might be too 'heavy' for some folks and >lack the
kind of blood and guts angst so many people expect >So I was
on the hunt for a slightly more clever mechanic that non- >Daisy
types might understand. Any ideas?
I still like
the first idea. There just needs to be a bunch of little baby rabbits
bouncing around too. Players might question their orders when they
have to kill babies. Give victory points of 1 for every adult and 1/2
a point for babies. Also there needs to be a way for the bunnies
to put up a defense. Nothing real tough though. Say they can throw
rotten eggs,(called biochemical weapons by the GM) that cause a
player to vomit for a turn or they can use garden tools. This way the
players dont realize how defenseless the bunnies really are against
someone in powerarmor and armed with a blaster. Then at the end of the
game you can have some all powerfull being, (as in every Star Trek
episode), show up and ask the players what have they done to his
creations.
You need a
way to get the players firing at the begining of the game. Say they have
a firefight with your villian who manages to kill several
non-player characters that the players where suppose to defend, such
as the "President of the Non Voting League of Left Handed Beings
with less than 10 eyes" and the "Vice President of Marketing for
Galactic-Cola". He then pops through the portal to your bunny world.
The players in hot pursuit, after being offered a reward for every
criminal brought to justice died or alive, start taking fire from the
village. Of course they will probably assume that the villian has
returned to his home and everyone in the village is part of the
attack. A few autocannons, warbots and walking spidermines sprinkled
around the village by the villian will help with that.
If you want
to be really sinister in your pregame briefing, you can tell the
players that when the villians race is young, they can do limited mind
control on a player that can scramble his brains. So dont allow
any young withen 20 meters of your character. I can just see these
cute little baby bunnies hopping up to a character, who is screaming at
the baby rabbit to stay back or he'll fire. As the baby bunny gets
closer the GM starts rolling the dice and having the player roll a
dice for his mind shield defense. See how quickly the player starts
shooting when he sees a GM rolling dice. If a player ask what he
needs to roll, just tell him it is based on the distance from the
character. You can have waves of little bunnies hoping toward a
player. Then the GM can comment,"Hmmm not good. You realize that their
brain scrambler gets stronger with numbers." Player then starts
melting down every bunny in sight.
You will need
to give each player a limited number of disrupter grenades to
take out the buildings in the village. Since if you have the players
properly spooked they wont want to get anywhere near a building that
might be hiding a bunny. So hopefully at the end of the game you will
have piles of dead bunnies and burned out buildings.
Then at the
end of the game you can award certificates to each player. The
most bloodthirsty. The biggest killer. The biggest babykiller.
The peacemaker, etc.
Doug
===============================
Doug:
These are
fantastic ideas! I LOVE the idea of no ONE clear winner. Instead,
everyone's a winner (or a loser) depending on how you look at it. I've
already got a few ideas for the certificates:
POPULATION
CONTROL AWARD (most bunnies wiped out) QUALITY OF
MERCY AWARD (most bunnies spared) YOUTH CLUB
DIRECTOR EXCELLENCE AWARD (most baby bunnies annihilated) HARE SPLITTER
PAR EXCELLENCE AWARD (most bunnies killed by melee weapons) MISSION
EXCELLENCE AWARD (most actual Vilsssh Bad guys killed) ... and etc.
I actually
went through the card game in depth last night, and there's some
interesting one-trick-pony jokes in there, some of which I would
borrow, but the game cards are way too specific-- they reference the
other game's mechanics on the card and really don't translate
well.
Not to say I
might not lift the 'theme' from a few of them.
I have
another concept. Have the players that aren't currently moving their
guy be responsible for squads of bunnies opposing the current
player. The bunnies are engaged in a bunch of pacifistic occupations
(bakers, musicians, riding a boat, riding a car, etc.). My idea was
that the Galactic Patrol (yes, they are inspired by Doc Smith's
Lensmen and Bill the Galactic Hero) 'sees' these occupations very
differently than what they are-- the little rabbitmobile is an APC, the
bunny with the egg basket has grenades, the Bunny playing the alpenhorn
is really firing a mortar, etc. etc. It's all part of ruthless
mission indoctrination and battle-madness. And, well, these guys aren't
that smart. Anyway, the opposing player maneuvers the bunny squads
against their Galactic Patrol teammates when they aren't maneuvering
their guy, just to give them something to do.
Lastly, I
like your comments on mind control and having the rabbits fight back.
Rabbits come in stands of 1, 2, or 3. I'm going to give each stand a
label depicting them as the GALACTIC PATROL sees them-- fire team,
bazooka squad, mortar team, sniper, etc. To us, the rabbits will
look like they really are.
Mechanics-wise,
I'm adapting the random number/card draw concept I created for
BALLOONACY. Each card has a dice on each corner of the card. In a
fight/fight situation both players draw from the deck, place cards
face down without looking at them, and point to one or two corners,
depending on what they are doing. The cards are revealed, and
voila, instant combat results. Dice-free, too.
Walt
========================
> MISSION
EXCELLENCE AWARD (most actual Vilsssh Bad guys killed) > ... and
etc.
I see you
left out Most Rabbits Stomped to Death with Powerboots. Surely you
must award extra points for most imaginative extermination
techniques. Also players should have interesting weapons. The
flamethrower that shoots a jet of flame the thickness of a pencil
for 2 feet. The rocket launcher that has the rockets alternate
coming out from the front and back of the launcher. The blaster that
has a big red button on the side that says "Dont push me". The self
guided AI missile that doesnt want to die, so it slowly flys
around the battlefield avoiding everything and saying "I zee nothing,
I zee nothing, I dont vant to die for the Fatherland".
> > I have
another concept. Have the players that aren't currently > moving
their guy be responsible for squads of bunnies opposing the > current
player. The bunnies are engaged in a bunch of pacifistic >
occupations (bakers, musicians, riding a boat, riding a car, etc.). > My idea
was that the Galactic Patrol (yes, they are inspired by Doc Smith's
Lensmen and Bill the Galactic Hero) 'sees' these occupations
very differently than what they are-- the little rabbitmobile
is an APC, the bunny with the egg basket has grenades, the Bunny
playing the alpenhorn is really firing a mortar, etc. etc. It's all
part of ruthless mission indoctrination and battle- madness. And,
well, these guys aren't that smart. Anyway, the opposing
player maneuvers the bunny squads against their Galactic >Patrol
teammates when they aren't maneuvering their guy, just to >give them
something to do.
That would
take all your fun away Walt. You need to run those fiendish
killer bunnies. Because sooner or later one the players will ask how
do I shot the mortar. Ignorance is bliss and fun too. You have to
get the players in that Galactic Patrol mindset. All aliens are
evil, unless they are blond, blueeyed and 36DD. Aliens want to suck
your brain out. Aliens want to impregnant our women. Aliens smell
bad and lower property values. Never trust an alien.
> > Lastly,
I like your comments on mind control and having the >rabbits
fight back. Rabbits come in stands of 1, 2, or 3. I'm >going to
give each stand a label depicting them as the GALACTIC >PATROL
sees them-- fire team, bazooka squad, mortar team, sniper, >etc. To
us, the rabbits will look like they really are.
Thats the
key. If the pregame briefing has the players fearing anything that
isnt human, it doesnt matter how cute the bunnies are. Describe how
terrible the Vilsssh really are. Give them terrible powers and
the players will shoot first and ask questions later. Plus if you
impress on the players that promotion in the GAlactic Patrol is
totally dependent on the number of villians captured or killed, they
might be even more trigger happy. To make corporal you need 10
villians, sergeant is 20 villians, etc. To make Lensmen you need at least
a 100. For died rabbits you could use flatten cotten balls covered
in red, to show what is left after a blaster blows one apart. I can
see it now, a table covered with red cottonballs. The Great Bunny
Slaughter of 2499.
Of course
there must be a flagpole in the center of town flying the Galactic
Union flag with an old rabbit under it pleading for the patrol to
stop shooting his people. Want to bet he gets plugged by one of the
players.
Is this going
to be at Historicon?
Doug ===================
Yep. Probably
Thursday night, since that's a slim night for games.
I was
thinking of casting casualty figs with sculpy, using the sculpy cast method
that was mentioned a long time ago in Colonial Wars. Of course, that
could get very expensive when you have 90+ bunnies to kill and I
kind of wanted to recycle the Bunnies anyhow.
Walt
==================
I had a thunk
and have come up with a bunny casualty marker which
can be mass
produced and glued on cardboard.
Have a look:
(Yahoo files reference url)
Walt
===================== You realize
with that much blood, the censors will up your rating
to PG-13 now ;
). I will have to look for the game while at Historicon. Would love to
see the reaction of the players.
Doug
==================
Walt, Do you
feel that many holes are necessary. After all, it's just a small
bunny, and it will add too much lead to the stew. Cleo
====================
Those are
smoking energy bolt holes, not bullet holes. The rabbit
is effectively
parboiled on the inside, relatively lead-free, thus greatly
speeding up cooking time.
Walt ===================
So Walt what
is this game to be named? Assault on
the Bunny Ranch? A hard time
at the Bunny Ranch? Into the
Warren of Death? Bunnies to
the right of me, Bunnies to the left of me. Valley of the
Buns A Hare(y)
Battle? Hare Cut! Semper Moo Mike
====================
I have been
watching this back and forth on bunnies. I am sure
it will be a
good game and Walt will do his usual superb job.
I however
have been inspired by the category to move in a different direction by
my, of late, hankering after more peaceful games, but still within
the bunny venue.
I will be
working on a bunny game also. But-- you see-- in my game the bunnies
will be wearing 5" heeled Dorsey pumps, little bunny ears, and of
course the cutest little puff of a cotton-tail on the skimpy
cut-away swimsuit style uniform--...
There will of
course be no poking holes in thses bunnies, but lots of poking of
holes....
And of
course-- they will all be WWVLB's.
Otto ======================= Two thoughts
on the Bunny game.
First, don't
forget the lovely rabbits from the critter commando line of miniatures
- there's even a mega rabbit in power armor. They could come
into the game when two many bunnies get fried to take revenge on
the evil humans.
Second, we
really really liked the casulaty markers used by the Hawks in their Buck
Rogers game - basically ankles and feet with smoke rising from
them. Doing bunny feet might be just the ticket... You could
even scatter a few cooked carrots on the base....
Andrew
=========================
Remember the
evil, nasty Vilsssh alien squad? They are represented by the Rabbit
squad of Critter Commandos in this game. The Galactic Patrol are in
pursuit of a squad of Vilsssh Commandos that used a short-range
"No Space Ring" to pop into a Galactic Cruiser and wreak havoc among
the unarmed and unready sailors. Needless to say, Sgt. Slaughter's
squad is in the mood to kick butt first and ask questions later.
(I
later did away with the
idea of SPECIFICALLY STATING that any figure was a Vilssh)
> Second,
we really really liked the casulaty markers used by the Hawks > in their
Buck Rogers game - basically ankles and feet with smoke > rising
from them. Doing bunny feet might be just the ticket... > You
could even scatter a few cooked carrots on the base....
Has a nice,
demented feel to it. I'd have to make up about 80 of them, however.
Walt ====================
On the
subject of killer rabbits, has anyone mentioned the scene
in ROTK where the Witch
King says to Arwen "Fool, don't you know I can't be killed by
man".
But the
figure standing before the WK is actually Bugs Bunny in armour,
who rips off his
helmet and retorts "Well, hows about a rascally rabbit?" and
stabs the Witch King.
WK dies, with
a "oooooooh, I hate that darn rabbit"
or the scene
where the
mumakils charge the Riders of Rohan ..... Bugs of Rohan
whips out his bag of white mice and mumakils flee on two
hind legs shrieking in
terror. ===================== (this
is where we start
getting weird)
I've come up
with a revised set of mechanics for BUN-BUN LAND which will utilize
Special Events cards (My favorite!!).
If anybody
has (comedic) suggestions for "things that could go wrong" for the
Galactic Patrol, fire away. I'm all ears... bunny ears that is.
Walt ======================== I shall give
the matter some thought and come up with
something in a few days.
My own
thought is that it should involve some sort of self- humiliation
on the part of the gamers. That is, having to stand on a chair and
recite some poetry, or sing a song, or a nursery rhyme.
Otto =========================
To Otto from
Walt
You're
reading my mind, stop that.
These are
action cards-- basic random events, surely, but they tie in strongly with
the game's underlying theme about responsibility versus the killing
urge.
For instance,
at the beginning of the game I will recite the Galactic Patrol's 3
basic rules: Obey Orders, Protect Humanity, and Obey Orders. I
will also (maybe) come up with a GP anthem.
I will
naturally only say it once and then require the players to recite this
on a chair as their special cards come up.
Other ideas:
Trooper is
overwhelmed with the spirit of Galactic Brotherhood, sobs, and throws
down his arms to give Bunny a big hug (that's when he'll meet up with
a REAL Vilssh of course)..
Trooper
remembers indoctrination films at Boot Camp, goes berserk and fires off
weapon in random direction, dodging for nearest cover...
Trooper sees
the futility of the slaughter, wanders in random directions
for rest of turn, not firing at anyone...
& etc.
Walt =============================
To Walt from
Otto.
I downloaded
the bunny rules.
I shall look
over them on the weekend and make suggestions.
EVEN WORSE!
Tomorrow is the NJMGS month club meeting and they shall become the
topic of discussion of our group.
I see several
good points.
I was
dissappointed to see no taking into consideration of bra-size, size of
nipples, their perkyness or lack thereof, and the dynamics of the
cotton-tail.
===========================
First off, in
your HTH rules, I hope the GP troopers are armed with neat and
really bloody weapons. Such as chainsaws, chainswords, force blades,
disrupter batons, and of course shovels. No self respecting
trooper should be without his entrenching tool, and of course it
should be sharpened to have a razor edge.
I think any
player that can go the entire game killing bunnies with just his
shovel, should get a special certificate. It should read something
like, for saving over 2 million credits by not using any ammo,we the
command staff would like to give you this gift coupon of 10 credits to
be used at your local McRabbits Resturants, over 1 Billion
stores Galaxy wide.
In 1.2
Galactic Patrol history and heros, I hope you include such stellar
members as Commodore Bombaster. The man who wiped out the Bengashi
scourge on Alpha Pinto IV. With a single "very small" planetbuster,
he stopped the Bengashi from opening a new coffee house and
spreading their vile believes and their blend of a very good
Columbian coffee. The lose of 2.7 billion members of the Confederation
when Alpha Pinto IV broke up after being hit by a "very
small" planetbuster, while regretable, was the only way to reduce the
threat to our freedom, our believes, and our right to a good cup of
Starbucks best.
Or how about
Sargeant Major Flint. The steely eyed individual who took over his
company after the officer in charge, suddenly became confused and
ran screaming around the command bunker, (we are still trying to
find out what weapon was used on him to get this result). SM Flint,
after shooting the officer to stop the spread of the confusion,
with his steely gaze stopped the panic in the company and encouraged
the men to fight with the famous lines, "The next ****** coward who
runs like the ******* Major, will get a blaster bolt in the head. So
you better hope the ****** ******* alien scum gets you and not me.
If you run from your positions, I'll kill your whole ****** family
by tearing their arms off and beating them to death with em."
With these inspiring words the company held their positions,
even though they were outnumbered 10 to 1. All 4 survivers
were in total agreement that without SM Flint standing behind them,
they never would have been able to hold the position.
With men like
this, is it any wonder that the GP is loved throughout the Galaxy as
a force for peace and goodness.
Doug ============================
And
now... we spiral out of
control...
To Walt from
Victor
You know you
and I keep making a habit of this. Somehow we have to work on our
phraseaology.
I assumed
from your post that you were wanting the force the gamers to
"play-act." If you want them to be above the campaing and simply have to work
with cardboard characters that are idiots that's a different
story.
The key is if
the gamers can shift blame for their failures to an inanimate
character.
Now... On to
your Bunny Wars.
I read the
rules and I have the following reccommendations.
1. It looks
good, but I think it's going to have a limited run. After all, there IS
a practical joke to it all and you usually get only one run through
on practical jokes.
2. I think
that if you really want to challenge players you should do something
like this.
A. The
Bunnies have NO weapons. They are completely non-violent. In fact, the
bunnies on the planet are not a military unit at all. (The bunnies have
no military units, in fact, they do not even have a concept of
"military." What Sgt Skuds troopers meet on the planet is a contact
team. That is, a team the bunnies send out to contact alien races.
See– the bunnies are a peaceful, curious, inquisitve and gregarious
race, and they are in fact telepaths. The problem is that we are not!
The Bunnies can therefore read our minds, but we cannot intercept
communications with them. The Bunnies have developed this telepathy as
a survival skill because obviously having no real defenses,
their species survival depends on speed, stealth, and now the ability
to know what the enemy is thinking, giving them the opportunity
to zig when they should zig and zag when they should zag.
You see the
Bunnies are as curious as we are, and have evolved another
survival skill which is affability and the ability to work through their
problems. The Bunnies are no strangers to vicious belligerant
predators like us, but their societal structures, their way of life,
their ethos holds that discovery, contact, cooperation– even in an
unfair way, is beter the confrontation. They in fact get plain joy
from helping others and are known to be tremendously self- sacraficial
to achieve these ends. Their extreme prolificness supplies the
losses.
B. So the
Bunnies are on this planet, willing to suffer massive casualties if
only they can get us to realize they do not want to kill us,
destroy us, and harm us, but simply contact us. On the other side is
the vicious, evil, military industrial complex which for reasons
of pure power cannot accept the "Bunny mentality" because it so alien
to their own spirit of cruelty and mindless acquisitiveness,
and so forth. They have told the troopers (with faked photos
and movies, evidence etc.) that the Bunnies are vicious savage
rodents, stripping the worlds they take of all resources, like locusts
swarming over the lands and creating deserts were there were once lush
paradises, drinking rivers dry etc... The troopers are also told that the
Bunnies capture whole populations and hang them up living from
meat-hooks in their breeding factories and the throats are slit so
the blood drips down into bowls that the young bunnies feed from.
Also shown are pictures of bunnies feasting on humans, raping
virgins etc., blah blah blah. Remember a good bunny is a dead bunny." "Have
you slagged your Bunny today.."
C. They are
also told that the bunnies have powerful and insidious weapons. One
like a huge flat antenna array which can broadcast disorienting
waves and detect troopers behind cover etc. This must be destroyed
before it can be set up and as it takes a time to set up troopers
should destroy these as soon as they find them. They are actually
holographic projections screens which show scenes of bunny live, bunny
plays and drama etc., as a prelude to contact. Another large
Satellite dish or radar-dish like object the troopers are told is a
disintigration ray gun which even a near miss can make a trooper impotent, and
these must be destroyed to (actually a large audio device to
broadcast bunny music. Large cashes of brilliant decorated Faberge style
Eggs are merely Bunny crates holding copies of art and dioramas of
bunny life etc... The Bunnies store their books and records on
cylindrical metal rods and these are told by the troopers to be bullets
for their projectile weapons.
D. Now the
whole key is to create situations (the rules are unimportant)
where actions are misinterpreted. That is, setting up one of these
pieces of equipment. The only hostile thing the bunnies can do is to
attempt to snatch a team member and drag him away to some spot
where they can tie him down and try and get their message across.
Obviously this would be interpreted as the start of a bunny feeding
frenzy. Other times, time and again the troopers will kill dozens of
bunnies, but at no time will a bunny ever kill a trooper. See how long
it takes them to find out theyre not being shot at. In fact, the
ONLY troopers dying are from friendly fire (which the leader will
explain as the bunnies getting mind control of the crews of their
gunships or controlling the minds of fellow troopers. The key will come
if a trooper is isolated –say– and is wounded by friendly
fire. You roll a die secretly (it doesn't matter what the roll) and you
say "Oh too bad, you have a serious injury, mark down 20 points of
your 24 point damage. And (rolling agin) Damn... there is a bunny
peering out of a cellar window at you, just a few feet away... he
springs out and leaps on you... and you lose conscience. "
"Wait, Wait... I'll try and take him with me with my grenade!" Win
or lose you say he goes unconcious before the grenade goes off, but
roll a die.(again the actuall roll is immaterial and say.."Hmmm
you are lucky! You survive! Let me have your card, I have to see some
of your special codes for this (Special codes are mere gibberish of
numbers and letters that you have made a big deal of before and
not explained. They are meaningless.) You take the guys card, hemm
and haw, roll some dice, make some calculations and hand back his card
with 9 of the 20 points erased! The Bunny was part of a medic team
which sacraficed itself to heal him.
E. The plots
and invidents can be elaborated. The key here is to see how long it
takes before someone notices, and even more, before those who notice
STOP killing the bunnies and start to question.
F. To make it
interesting I'll tell you what I'll do. Society of Daisy will
put up a $25.00 prize for the winner of the game. Now the REAL winner
of the game will be the person who stops killing bunnies, but when you
are speaking as "the team leader or the political officer for
the troopers, and it would be best to have someone else do this, HE
says that the player who kills the most bunnies gets the prize. You
have to be carefull about working this in.
G. Now the
real test will be to see who keeps on killing bunnies after they
know it's wrong, and simply because they think they are getting the
$25.00. The winner of course is the trooper who first turns his
weapons on these people.
H. THERE IS A
PROBLEM. You are likely to get lynched. Arthur said this right
off– "People are going to get real mad because you have deceived
them, and you HAVE forced them to think. What you are doing is in reality
a "small scale Milgram or Zimbardo experiments on human morality. ================
In
retrospect, I shouldn't
have posted this:
Wow, I just
read up on Milgram and the Stanford Prison Experiment. THAT'S IT!!!!
That's *exactly* the approach. This whole concept was always
about 'good' people following a duty they couldn't understand
and might find repulsive in real life. The fact that it's "only a
game" might just cause some interesting results from callous
players that think it's funny to slay innocent inanimate cute things.
This is exactly the direction i wanted to take it but have been
pondering how to get there.
I think the
success of this concept will rely on three elements.
1) The
Pre-Briefing: I have to work on a suitably bellicose briefing demonstrating
how visciousness of the Vilssh (Bunnies). Throw in all the great
buzz words and emotional phrasology that will appeal to the players
2) Events
that happen offscreen: Communications keep coming in (in the form of
random event cards) about how evil the Bunnies are being elsewhere
("space station acipter has been overun!! There are no survivors!")
3) Hiding the
game table in advance: The battlefield will be sugary sweet and
saccharine... bright green felt, Ceramic Egg villages.. that sort of
thing. I give the briefing BEFORE they see what they are fighting.
Otto, i
accept your challenge and I love the embellishments. You've given some
very good ideas and believe you me, I do appreciate the work put in
by the good lads up in NJ.
Walt ======================
To Walt from
Otto.
I'll bring a
knife to cut you down when they string you up!
=========================
Hi Walt do
you need a ringer as political officer/commissar?
Doug
=======================
To Walt from
Otto.
I disagree on
your hiding the board. I don't think you should make it ANY different
from any normal ciber-punk-grunge-modern combat game. I think you
should make it a human world that the Bunnies have landed on to try and
contact us. By doing it this way your eyes will confirm what their
ears have heard, that this is another just kill-the vicious
aliens game. Then-- bit by bit you introduce the sweet saccharine
elements as the bunnies show themselves. Remember you want to preserve
their prejudices and illusions as long as possible.
Remember that
they set the milgram experiments in a lab, and used college dorms
as prisons-- which-- they kind of look like anyway.
Remember the
test is to see how long people will actively cling to their
prejudices before the overwhelming evidence forces them to give it up-- if at
all.
I also think
that you should consider doing away with any real formal game
mechanics. You will stumble over these and give them time to think.
Remember you want to test them, and if you give them time to think.
Now...
Personall
I think what you're doing is
reprehensible. As reprehensible
in fact as my game of Morning Noon and Night in Vienna was. You are
placing these poor creatures in a situation that their mental
equipment is woefully inadequate to handle and which they are completely
unsuspecting. (I mean the gamers, not the bunnies). Further, the
game is very subversive because you are "promising" them enjoyment "on
their terms" -- another kill the Alien Game (though here I guess
you could make the Battle-Cry of the Marines -- KILL DA WABBIT!! KILL
DA WABBIT!! KILL DA WABBIT!! sung to Wagners Ride of the
Valkyries, but that's another matter), but it's not that type of game, and in
fact is a game where you intend to discomfit them.
Rather dicey
stuff.
============================ Walt and
Otto, I always wanted to do a game like Sandcreek, where
you have a US
army attack on a friendly Indian village. I wanted to see if any of the
players would actually stop attacking when they realize 90% of the
people they are killing are women and children. But always considered it
too diffucult for people to swallow. Plus some sick bastard out
there might actually enjoy it. I think going with aliens is a much
more palatable,(if genocide is ever palatable), way to do it. What a
neat idea for a game, that it actually makes you stop and think.
The only
problem is that you are letting 12 and younger play with an adult. The
adult may see what is going on, but I doubt if a 10 year old will see
anything wrong with killing 50 bunnies or a 100 bunnies. To them it is
just a game. Unless of course you also conducting an experiment on
whether 10 years olds know the difference between right and wrong and
should be tried as adults. ; )
Doug ================
In Lois
McMaster Bujold's Barrayar stories set during the reign of
Emperor Ezer there is
the Ministry of Political Education and its officers are
Political
Education
officers. VERY nasty types. How about PEACE officer =
Political Education
Activist and Command Enabler officer. Your Galactic Patrol
sounds a bit like the
Barrayaran Imperial Service, except the former doesn't
have the old style
punishment parades of the latter. Softies. Moooo, Michael =====================
> That
reminds me. There is a user on the Greytalk list that > like to
refer to a D&D religion about "buns" (bread). > > Are
there any links to a Bun-Bun Land website?
There is only
one online reference to Bun-Bun Land, and that's in the HISTORICON
PEL. For obvious reasons.
=======================
Here's a few
piccies of the work being done on SERGEANT SLAUGHTER IN BUN-BUN LAND.
KILLABOT-9, the squad's cranky but loveable Assassin droid (which
must be programmed by cards and can go berserk quite often) (photo
link reference) is being
painted by my son, Garrett. I'm working on the members of
the Galactic Patrol... standard "big shoulder pad" science fiction guys
with a twist.. they have cute retro-sf bubble helmets, very much in
keeping with the "1950s Golden Age of Science Fiction theme" I've
chosen as the setting. There are three non-combatants (not
pictured) that are mechanics and spear-carrier types. They keep KILLABOT-9
going, and move the probe droid through the Gate.
Walt =========================
Walt where
are the cute cuddely killer bunnies? Dont tease us
with our brave
boys in blue, yet not show us the dreaded enemy. How are our brave
boys suppose to know what to shoot at,(besides anything that moves),
if we dont know what they look like. You will have enemy
identification posters for our brave boys to study.
"The only
good enemy is a bloody splat on the landscape."
"Shoot first
and never ask questions."
"Make your
Mother proud son, kill one for mom."
"If you dont
get him first, he will get you."
"Anything
that looks like that must be evil and deserves to be destroyed."
Doug
==========================
I'm pondering
what to name the GP guys. They are run as
individuals (or groups of
2) so the player will want to identify with them.
Here's the
consist of the Galactic Patrol. I have SOME names fixed.
1) Sergeant
Murray Slaughter (the guy in charge) 2) ___ _____,
the Sergeant's recon expert. Mounted on a gyrostabilized
unicycle for encountering hostile terrain. 3) ___ _____,
heavy weapons guy 4) ____
_____, heavy weapons guy 5) ____ ____,
bolter gun 5) ____
_____, comms expert, manages communication through the Gate 6) ____ ____,
Big Axe guy 7) _____
____, generic gun guy 8) ____ ____,
generic gun guy 9) ___ _____
Scummy contracted mechanic (grease gun and wrench.. he programs
Killabot-9) 10) ___ ___
Mechanic's Assistant (he is backup programmer and keeps hostiles off
the mechanic in a firefight) 11) Skred,
little alien guy carrying HUGE spare parts backpack.
Walt
========================
(and
now I"m compared to the
Waffen SS)
To walt from
Otto.
I don't care
how you try and put it, there is no joke in Bun-bun land. Or, if
there is, it's you putting one over on the players, and in fact
placing them in a situation where they will be embarrassed, and I suspect
resentful. You tricking them into being complicit murderers.
If you put
out a game which said "Sonderaktion SS- Anatevka" which had as its
description....
"You command
a troop of SS Sonderaktion commando's in Russia as they enter a
Russian village, round up all the loveable (and completely defenseless)
Jewish characters from Anatevka, the charming village from Fiddler
on the Roof, and machine gun and shoot them to death in a ditch. How
good is your accuracy with your mauser 88? Can you put a bullet
through the head of a recently machinegunned twitching child and put him
out his misery? Or will you forgoe the act of mercy and just have the
moujiks bury him alive. If you chose to be a villager you can plead
for the life of your wife and child (vainly of course). Some come and
have fun killing Tevya, Goldie, Motel, and all the rest- - and yes--
Tevye's Cow too!"
If you put
that in the program you'd likely get thrown out of HMGS not to
mention the convention.
What you're
doing is the same plot only making a description that makes heroes
out of the SS men. When you rip the veil from their eyes be prepared
for hostility. You're tricking them. Regardless of what you think
about my sense of humor and my attitude of "fuck the bastards.." I
never trick them into being the villains.
We can
discuss anything on Daisy and get our yuks about it, including this, but the
only thing you will do is either make people feel bad about
themselves, or uncomfortable with their hobby, or worse reveal to them what
monsters they really are.
Read cold,
the song "It's Springtime for Hitler" is horrific. Sung in the
Mel-brooks Movie- in its proper context, it's hilarious.
Context Walt
-- is everything.
I can't see
that any good will come of this.
======================== To Otto from
Walt
> Context
Walt -- is everything.
I couldnt'
agree more!
> I can't
see that any good will come of this.
Harrumph! You
were enthusiastic about the idea a couple of weeks ago.
Walt ======================
You write. >
Harrumph! You were enthusiastic about the idea a couple of weeks ago.
I respond Yes I was,
but after considering it and pondering it I began to see the pitfalls
and I already posted you on these about two weeks ago. As I see it
going along I see more and more trouble from it.
Many things
start out as great ideas but after consideration seem les so.
It's your
game and you can do what you will. I just wanted to point out the
dangers. (oh
really? Well, see what happens next..) ==================== (I'm
seriously fed up with
the tone being taken in the group about my
simple bunnies and spacemen
game.. "humor in wargaming???" get a life!)
Gentlemen, I
think we're overanalyzing this thing here, and it's starting to
be a creative buzzkill for yours truly. What started out as a
light-hearted burlesque on the Beast of Id has become an event that is so
shocking it's generating comparisions to running a game about Nazi
Atrocities, political correctness and HMGS East politics.
For those of
you who know me well enough, you know that I'm not advocating
violence, NOR am I channeling the players into a situation where they
have no choice BUT to commit violence. NOR will I "reward"
players for committing or not committing violence. I know *exactly*
what the reprecussions of my actions are here, and I have faith that I
can rise to the occassion and run this game in such a manner that
the players will have fun, no matter what course they take. knock
wood.
I'm also into
Peace Games, as Otto correctly describes them. Le Grand Cirque
is one such, and even the dreaded Amish Rake Fight is exactly that,
though it features violence. There is always more than one way to
skin a cat, and my way is what it is. I make no apologies.
I am,
frankly, taken aback by the commentary on here. Are we not collectively
adopting the visage of Janus when we reward a game about killing
innocents (and shower compliments upon it) when we give the Daisy Award
to a game about killing baby seals? If you want to apply the exact
same analogy to it as was applied to me, turn the baby seals into
Chinese prisoners after the Rape of Nanking, and the seal- clubbers into
Japanese guards having beheading contests. Real story. As
Otto correctly states.. it's all in the context, neh?
I might also
add, I'm not into "shaking up HMGS" any more than I do when I run
something like ARF or LGC. I do my own thing, have my own vision, and
it's everyone's right not to like it. If the idea flops, I won't run
it again, that's simple enough.
To address
some concerns that have been brought up, I am adopting different
styles of play as reward conditions. The real victory is if the GP can
1) find the "real" Vilssh (a chimera, as it turns out). and 2)
connect the magic Crystal power source to the Gate, so they can
teleport back to where they came from. To do so, they will have to cross
Bun-BunLand with a cable spool and come back again. Yes, I'll
make smaller victories for BOTH styles of play. I know what I
consider a victory to be, personally, but Otto also has a point here. I
am not intentionally going to throw an event that will make people
walk away from it feeling awful about themselves. I am not (I
fervently hope) that sadistic.
In lieu of
the Society's new position of Sergeant Slaughter in Bun- Bun Land, I
will have to reject the previously offered reward of 25 dollars for
the winner.
V/R
Walt =============================
(Arthur,
who had been offlist,
was presented with the rules to Bun-Bun and rejoined,
to engage in the
debate. It was Arthur who made the first connection to
the Millgram/Zimbaro
experiments)
To Walt from
Arthur:
Well, I've
been away, but now I'm back...
Although
Otto's pretty much laid out the moral and ethical dimensions of your
effort, let's look at a couple other aspects.
1. Is it
really a game?
You as GM are
the only one who is actually "playing the game", as in the Milgram
or Zimbardo experiments the participants around the table are only
performing an experiment. In fact, you will be so heavily controlling
the information and options the players have that they will be
forced down the pathways you have chosen.
You might
reply "They can quit anytime they like!". True, but "games",
and especially "convention games" are all about working within the
ruleset provided and trying to work with the GM, rather than be a
drag on the proceedings.
If you are
willing to run an "honest game", then you will let the players know
ALL of their options, including quitting, turning in their guns,
becoming a contientious objector, etc.
But if you
want to run a "dishonest game" and withold options in hopes that
the players will think and act "outside the box" that leads to
point #2
2. We are not
professional soldiers
The average
wargamer has not made a study of the Geneva convention, the "laws of
war", the relevant articles of military justice, and has not had it
drilled into his head the rules of engagement with an enemy. Like
any set of rules, they can be subtle and hard to follow without
interpretation and guidance. So how could you expect the wargamers to
apply any of these in a wargame?
Now, you can
make the game so obvious that the players can make a simple yes/no
moral decision, but that leads to point #3.
3. It's all a
fake.
Rather than
running a real Milgram or Zimbardo experiment, you are running it
once removed by using little dolls as stand ins for the people. It's
not a real life or death situation, no one is being really hurt,
not even the little plastic characters, so why would anyone have
any pangs of concience. I can pull the wings off of plastic flies
all day, but don't you dare ask me to torture a real one. Now, if
you inflicted a flesh wound on yourself every time the buns got hit,
I predict you would see a huge amount of real concern, and probably
a cessation of action after a little bleeding on your part. I know
the Milgram or Zimbardo experiments say differently, but I think
wargamers DO have empathy (and they would think you were insane and
want to get away from you).
But say it
serves as a wonderful experiment....
4. Will
anything be learned?
Not by the
participants. If I read the Milgram or Zimbardo experiments
right, the only folks that really benefitted were the researchers.
Some of the participants thought the researchers were SOBs, some
didn't think it was a big deal, but I don't recall a lot of
life-changing revelations coming out of it. The only folks that got their
jollies were the folks who set it up...
So really
Walt, this is all about you, isn't it? What do YOU want to get out of
this?
Arthur
========================
(I
respond to the cudgeling...)
Arthur! I
thought you had retired to a Tibetan monestary somewhere. It's good to
have you back. What have you been up to?
Your points
are all very reasonable, and well structured for me to reply in
kind-- but first, yes, I admit I had something akin to Milgram or
Zimbardo buzzing around in my head when I came up with this idea--
but I really didn't have the frame of reference to what I was trying to
remember from PSYCH 101 in the back of my head until Otto
mentioned it in passing. However, I didn't see it quite through a lens darkly
as you seem to have.
1. Is it a
game? It is if people see a simple task ahead of them, possess
limited information, have choices to make (right or wrong) and act on
them. I've played in games like this before-- mostly modern games
about counterinsurgency operations, but also one or two memorable
colonial era games. I've given a very serious tactical exercise a
big, happy goofy camoflauge, but it's not that different from some
games that are run at our conventions.
I've stated
"YES! I do want them to confront evil!" and perhaps that is a power
trip that equates me with a Milgram Experiment adminstrator.
I don't think so. BunBun Land is actually a reasonably
tricky tactical situation with a moral edge to it. Whom do you trust?
Your indoctrination? Or what your eyes see? Real soldiers do
that, every day.
You infer
that I might not want to run an honest game. How do you arrive at
this conclusion? Otto (and yourself, apparently) have arrived at
the conclusion that I'm programming this game for slaughter.
What have I said, specifically, that points to that? Do you know that
I won't be honest? Or is this just how you want to see this
situation?
2. I agree,
the above does lead to "We are not professional soldiers" but we are
all (evidence to the contrary at some conventions) "Human Beings",
posessed with empathy. It doesn't take a professional soldier to
make a moral choice. You and I make them every day. I wouldn't
slaughter helpless people in real life, nor would you (I'm fairly sure).
3. Sure, it's
a fake. All of wargaming is a fantasy, and don't let anyone tell
you otherwise. Doesn't matter if it's Warhammer, Napoleonics,
Ancient Rome, or whatever, it's all a big fake. I sure as hell
wouldn't want it to go beyond being a fake, either. I have no desire to
inflict pain on anyone any more than any of the players do. It may
surprise you to know that I agree with you; I think most players DO
possess empathy in large amounts.
4. Will
anything be learned? Hell if I know. I haven't moved a single figure
yet. I'll let you know.
> So
really Walt, this is all about you, isn't it? What do YOU want to get out of
this? <
A chance to
do something different.. defining a game in terms other than "what do
I kill to give myself victory?", a calculus that I detest. Other
than that, nothing but a lot of hostility, it would seem. To tell
you the truth, I'm rapidly getting sick of the whole thing.
Walt ========================== (Otto
tries to kill the
thread)
To All from
Otto.
I will use my
power as moderator to post this last summary on the above thread
and call it finis.
First off, I
want to commend Walt, Doug, Arthur, and anyone else who posted on
this thread (myself excluded for modesty sake) most heartily for
handling a VERY difficult and VERH explosive issue in a gentlemanly,
adult, intelligent, and logical manner. You are all to be heartilly
commended for this is conduct not usually seen on lists these days.
All sides submitted long and well thought out positions and opinions,
and backed them up well, and no one made a "straw-man" argument or
resorted to flaming and innuendo.
Next I want
to commend you all again because all of you obviously put a lot of
thought in this matter and are deeply concerned with the moral
dimensions of what we do, and are doing. It is rare to find people today
who ask themselves "what to I mean when I say what I mean" and
"what am I doing when I do what I do." All of you are converned
about these issues and many of the other issues Walt has called before
us.
And I want to
thank all of you WHO DID NOT POST or flame, but stood by and read
the debate, because it says much the same about each of you. I hope
none shall be offended when I say that this in no uncertain
terms marks we "Daisyites" as an"elite group."
It is rare
these days to see people carry on such a heated argument about such a
volatile issue and not resort to demonizing the other side. Each
side treated the other side with respect and concern, and each side did
not attack the person no matter how much they disagreed with the
argument. Once again kudos all around.
I further
think, and this may be my own conceit, that only on DAISY could this
take place, where I think we are all gathered for fun and enjoyment
rather than in a desperate battle for reality.
To turn to
the game at hand, in spite of my personal opinion as voiced
against it, I DO think that Walt has a valid point and that the game as
he originally crafted it is a valid game. My concern with presentation
and style aside, I DO think it is a game that OUGHT to be played.
The conditions and environment and process under which it should be
played however elude me and the same questions terrify me. I sincerely
agree with Walt that the issue he is dealing with here is not only
central to human existance but something we must address in our hobby. We
may not be able to address thatn communally in a game, but we
certainly can address it individually as we think about the game. That is
what games are all about once you get beyond the fun part.
Designing an alternate reality which is some ways abstracted so we can
examine issues more clearly. I must also say that I think Walt has a lot of
courage in championing the idea-- far more in fact-- than I.
Walt and I
have had several disagreements. Yet I treasure Walt as a friend, and
treasure him more because he has let me into his mind in a small way.
So have many others on this list and I treasure you all. I am sure
Walt had no ulterior or dark motives. There was never a doubt in my
mind about his "moral compass."
I do not
think that this whole thread was "off-topic" either. The idea of Humor
in war games is by its very nature "subversive" By the very
burlesque and satire which is so dear to us we open the door not only to the
absurdities of corrupt Chinese admirals, incompetent Generals, and
Lascivious countess' mis-managing the affairs of state and playing
fast and loose with the lives of men, we open the door to the questions
of "Mephistopheles in Bun Bun Land." In a sense then we have already
played the game, each and every one of us in thinking about this
thread and "pondering these things in our heart." I think we are all
better for playing it.
===============================
Meanwhile,
the topic ranges
far and wide, and the comparisons grow extreme
Gee I hardly
feel this is the correct forum to defend my post.
Otto has already
said this is over. So just let me say as someone who has retired from
the military recently because my personal feelings would not let
me do something I believe morally wrong, I know what people could
and would do in the military. I will not respond on this forum or
privately to this post again. Sorry Otto for responding to
a post you had killed. If you would like to boot me from the
group for saying this here, then go ahead I respect your judgement. I
will miss the humor though.
VR Doug
--- In SOCDAISY@yahoogroups.com,
Sloggenmarsch@a... wrote: > "That is
the defense already being put forward from the prison scandal in > Iraq. > When I
hear an American saying those words, I know how far we have > sunk in
this country. All I could think of was some SS goon saying > the same
thing about being a concentration camp guard." > > The
people at Abu Ghraid were not following orders. That "defense" won't > wash. If
they'd been following orders they'd never have done that stuff.
It may > be PC to
say American soldiers are just as bad as "some SS goons," but it's >
demonstrably not true. Not to mention it was the US Army itself that put a > stop to
that shit as soon as higher authorities learned of it, and that arrested > the
perps and relieved the incompetent officers whose laxity allowed it,
which > is
hardly what the SS would have done at Anutevka. That was all done, and > the
facts announced, months before the pictures came out. The media showed
no >
interest, until they got their hands on some prurient pictures. > Moo
bloody moo, > Michael
=====================
(Otto
Placates Doug)
To Doug from
Otto.
I don't work
that way.
The
vicissitudes of e-mail, namely that we are not all in the same room dictate
that things will get out of phase- crosspostings etc. That must
simply be beared with
My final
statement complemented all and censured none. I do not hold a persons
opinions against him or her when strongly and sincerely held when
they conflict with mine. In fact I hold person who have such
opinions, and defend them openly in high regard and esteem, even then are
antithetical to mine. If a person does not have strong opinions and
hold things deeply then I rather dismiss him as somewhat shallow. If
we have nothing worth fighting for we have nothing worth living for.
Conviction and passion are commendable when honestly held.
We live in an
age of sadly diminished civility. I recently re-read Gertrude
Hillelfarb's "The Demoralization of Society" which was a disquisition
into Victorian "Values-- the Victorians would rather call them
Virtures. Even a short delve into the book brings up the unpleasant
outline of how much civility we have lost.
Without
civility we cannot debate large issues without demonizing those with
whom we disagree. If we cannot debate large issues and big questions
that may discomfit, disturb and perhaps offend others, then "The
Western Experiment" is truly at an end-- and a failed one at that.
As I said,
all within Daisy are to be complemented for the civility of the
debate, both on and off-list. You, Doug, are one of those to be
complemented. No excuses need be made for none are required. The whole point
of such debate is to determine the truth and to change minds through
logical argument and earnest discussion. If we cannot change our
minds then there is little point in discussion or debate. A person who
can change his mind when persueaded is to be commended, a person who
will not change his mind just because he won't admit to being wrong--
we'll our contemporary world demonstrates the folly of that more
than I can retell.
One final
comment, and Walt will perhaps understand this more than all. I think
that Walt should give his game as presented and not make ANY changes
in it save one. He should leave the present write up in the PEL the
same and carry through all things as was discussed before his post
making a change with some provisions of a spectre or something.
The one change I think he should make is IMMEDIATELY before the
game begins he should say.
"Now,
everything I told you is a lie. The bunnies are not vicious aliens or
sadistic creatures. They are actually completely peaceful, have no
weapons, and only wish to contact us etc.etc. They have no weapons, and
they have no sinister devices etc. " And then let the game begin.
To quote
scripture from Genesis "And now let us see what the Man will do."
I think Walt,
that you should in this game let "everyone be as good or as evil as
they want to be."
"And let us
see what the Man will do."
Keep posting
Doug. You're an asset to the group
=========================
(add
to this the several
off-list emails I got, challenging
me to a debate
about this games' premise, and you might
agree about how absurd
the whole thing is getting. I'll end it
here, with "Doug" threatening to leave, Arthur thinking I'm an egomaniac
and "Otto" disappointed at the premise)
